crystal sync

[woods01]

I keep reading in this forum about people talking about crystal sync motors in
their cameras for sync sound. I don't quite
understand how you need this as I always thought that you just synced up your sound
to the clapper.

I have only attempted silent films on S8 but
am planning to try a sound one this winter.
Using a cheap clapper and a mini disc.
Am I going to have sync problems without
the crystal motor?

[Actor]

The standard frame rate for sound is 24fps (in the U.S.). A camera without crystal sync probably will not run at exactly that rate and will probably even speed up and slow down during the course of shooting one cartridge. A crystal sync camera will run at 24fps, gaining or losing less than one frame per cartridge.

Most people can tell if you are out of sync by two frames, so keeping sync within one frame is the standard most editors strive for. If you simply "sync up your sound to the clapper" and the camera or audio is not crystal sync then the picture will most likely outrun or fall behind the sound within a few seconds and you will have lost sync.

It should be obvious that for a crystal camera to do any good the audio also has to have crystal accuracy. Fortunately this is not too hard or too expensive to obtain. Video cameras have crystal sync accuracy, even VHS. If you record your sound on a camcorder or VCR you have crystal sound. Likewise any digital sound recording method (DAT or minidisc) will be crystal accurate.

Whether you are going to have problems without the crystal motor depends on how much work you are willing to put into your project and how much you are willing to learn. There are several methods of syncing "wild sound" in post but in the interests of brevity I'll describe only one. If you have your film transferred to DV and edit in a computer then some editors will allow you to "rubber band" the sound. This basically means you can stretch or shorten a sound clip and force the picture and sound to sync up.

[woods01]

So if the film was shot at 18 fps then I would
expect a lot more sync problems? My projector only
works at 18fps and I do my transfers with a DV cam
aimed at one of those transfer boxes. But those
were all silent.

If 18fps is going to cause me serious sync problems should I bite the bullet and pay for
a proper 24 fps telecine? I prefer to do my
films cheaply and I'm sure paying for a telecine
will quickly get expensive.

[Actor]

If you're happy with transferring via a transfer box I see no reason to change except that the lip sync may not look as natural at the slower speed. I have not tried it. (It's on my "to do" list.)

In any case I'd give Roger's transfer a try, http://www.moviestuff.tv/ , before I'd spend big bucks for a telecine.

I assume you are going to finish on video. Are you going to edit on computer? If so, what kind of editor will you use?

[rollemfilm]

it would be in your best interest to shoot at 24fps. even if you decide not to get a professional transfer at this time, you may want to later. if you shoot very short segmants, like 30 seconds or less, you have a better chance at wild sync working for you. it really depends on your camera and your batteries. before you shoot, know all your edit options. who will do the synchronization? if not you, ask who will what you can do.

[woods01]

Well I am not the director of this movie. I will
be DoP on this one. The director liked the look
of my first few S8 films and wants the grainy
vintage look for his movie. Editing will be done
on a Mac using Final Cut Pro.

I will have to talk to the director about the length of his cuts. He's got everything story
boarded. 10 to 30 second takes should be
enough in my opinion. But I am not the director
on this one.

Now if we shot at 24 fps and used a transfer
box with my 18 fps projector. If we fixed the
loss in speed on the computer would this
cause more sync problems?

John

[lightfeat]

Woods 01,

Don't even think about it! If you're making a proper film, either

a) don't waste you're time, money and sanity,

b) Get a crystal lock fitted by the "Film Group" for $550 (can only be done to certain cameras) and you'll be laughing



c) Get an Xtal camera, such as a Nizo 4080, Nizo 6080, Canon 1014XL-s etc. and you'll at least have a steady consistent speed, which you'll be able to adjust in post on a non linear editing system. You'll have to be careful to let camera reach speed (4-5 secs at the start of shot), then clap.

Please don't even think about it without doing something of this nature. I once did with 70 rolls of K40, and I'm still being asked when I'm going to finish the film. The answer - never! I gave up. It just wasn't worth it. I used a Canon 518 Super zoom, and it just isn't good enough. It gave me a very inconsistent 22 -26 fps. Horrible nightmare in post, believe me!

Get a Nizo 4080 and you can use it at 18fps and it will at least hold a steady 18.somethingorother for you to sync up to.

Hope this is useful

Lucas
London, England

[rollemfilm]

john: you will get flicker when you transfer your film. you can get a standard film chain transfer for very cheap. a non-rank transfer is better than a home video camera set up. yes, count on sync problems. if you are just the DP, then have the director spend the money on the transfer. wild sync is just that. sometimes it works, sometimes it won't. it's a crap shoot. you'll be better of planning ADR sessions. shoot for sync, but paln on repalcing all your dialoge. but, it will be cheaper and better to get a sync camera. talk with your director.

[Actor]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=2 face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><table border="0" width="90%" bgcolor="#333333" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="0"><tr><td width="100%"><table border="0" width="100%" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="2" bgcolor="#FF9900"><tr><td width="100%" bgcolor="#DDDDDD"><font size=2 face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">
you will get flicker when you transfer your film.
</font></td></tr></table></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE>
Flicker is not as severe a problem at 18fps. That's been my experience. A projector with a shutter angle of 216 degrees and a motor synced to line current should (theoretically) produce no flicker at all.

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ November 06, 2002 11:34 PM: Message edited by: Actor ]</font>

[rollemfilm]

any flicker at all is a problem. unless you want the effect.